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How Does High Frequency Electrolysis Work ?

"I found a bunch of nonsense claims in the internet, about the resonance frequency of water helping to split bonds.

The first thing to realize here is that there is no one resonance frequency of water. With suitable energy, you can excite rotational, vibrational and electronic states (I left out translation - there transition energies minute). At room temperature you can say as a rule of thumb that most molecules will be in some excited rotational state, but in the vibrational and electronic ground states. Excitation energies for rotation are in the far infrared or microwave energy/frequency region. Widely used e.g. in the microwave oven at 2.45 GHz (≈ 12 cm). Actually, the whole region is full of bands where water absorbs. Note that microwave heating of water does not cause electrolysis. Vibrational transitions are around 2.9 μm = 105 THz = 3500 cm⁻š and 6μm = 50 THz = 1635 cm⁻š with lots of combinations and overtones throughout the near infrared region. Quite exceptionally, the visible region is basically free of water absorption. Electronic transitions (breaking of bonds) need energies in the UV, and here we meet bands that lead to photodissociation, e.g. at 166nm (taken from Wikipedia). That corresponds to 1.8 PHz = 1.8⋅1015 Hz. Compare this to the kHz and MHz where your link claims dissociation.

This doesn't mean that the pulsed DC cannot help, nor that impedance spectroscopy won't give important information. But resonance frequencies in the kHz range are electrical LC-circuit resonances depending on cell and electrode geometries and electrical double layers etc. But neither on vibrations nor breaking of the bonds of the water molecule.

To give the "method" you ask about some real world numbers, at the very end of the Wiki page the energy efficiency for industrial water electrolysis is cited as usually between 50 and 80 %.

The paper then proposes to burn the gas in an internal combustion machine. As such a stationary process could be adjusted so that the engine is at its maximum efficiency, we may assume 1/3 or 35% efficiency here.

We then need a generator to convert the mechanical energy into electric energy. Fortunately, that step is rather efficient. Say, 95 %.

A fuel cell would be more efficient than the combustion - generator combination: ca. 40 - 60 % according to Wikipedia.

Unfortunately, also battery charging is not 100% efficient. Let's assume 80–90% (taken from Wikipedia on Li-ion batteries) For batteries that are charged with higher current (or current density) efficiency is less. Example would be lead-acid batteries as used in cars. Wiki quotes efficiencies between 50 and 80 %.

Taking these numbers together, I conclude that after going once through the cycle of the proposed "perpetuum mobile", 8 - 24 % of the energy are retained in a "useful state" while 76 - 92 % became heat. With fuel cell, we may be able to "boost" the energy efficiency to 43%...

Resonant Frequencies of Water

http://www.schoolphysics.co.uk/age16-19/Wave%2520properties/Wave%20properties/text/Microwave_ovens/index.html

Microwave ovens operate at a frequency of 2.45 GHz (2.45x109 Hz) and this is NOT the resonant frequency of a water molecule…

Water and microwaves

Water molecules contain three atoms and so can vibrate in a number of different ways. This makes calculating their resonant frequency very difficult. However microwave radiation of any frequency will affect them although they may not resonate.

Some vibrations of a three atom molecules are shown in the diagram. They are not to scale and are only meant to represent possible states of vibration.

When microwaves pass through water the water molecules absorb some of the microwave energy and as a result they twist and turn, writhing around, as the radiation passes by. However after the microwaves have gone the molecules stop moving again, remitting the energy as more microwaves. In free water molecules this does not result in a heating.

In a liquid things are rather different. The water molecules are close to reach other and so there is "friction" between them. It is the rubbing of one molecule against another as in liquid water that allows the energy to be retained and prevents it being reemitted as microwaves. The "friction" between the writhing water molecules and other molecules in a solid also heats up the solid.

Microwave ovens operate at a frequency of 2.45 GHz (2.45x109 Hz) and this is NOT the resonant frequency of a water molecule. This frequency is much lower than the diatomic molecule resonant frequencies mentioned earlier. If 2.45 GHz were the resonant frequency of water molecules the microwaves would all be absorbed in the surface layer of a substance (liquid water or food) and so the interior of the food would not get cooked at all.

The 2.45 GHz is a kind of useful average frequency. If the frequency was much higher then the waves would penetrate less well, lower frequencies would penetrate better but are absorbed only weakly and so once again the food would not absorb enough energy to cook well.

Standing waves set up within the oven. A standing wave is formed whenever two waves travelling in opposite directions meet in a "restricted area". This restricted area could be a metal box (as in a microwave oven) or a stretched string as in a violin.

Microwave ovens cook unevenly because a pattern of standing waves forms inside the oven chamber, and the pattern creates an array of hotspots throughout the oven's volume. An operating frequency of 2.45 GHz will produce a wavelength of around 12.25 cm, and the regions of maximum intensity (hotspots) will be at half-wave points, or every 6.125 cm, but in a complex 3D pattern.

This standing wave pattern explains why microwave ovens only work effectively if the food is rotated through the standing waves and why some ovens actually move the pattern by rotating the transmitter.

What is the resonant frequency of liquid water?

The lowest resonance of the water molecule is 22.235 GHz. This frequency is almost 10 times higher than the operating frequency of the microwave oven (2.45 GHz)…

What is important in the idea of resonance with water is to establish a frequency of excitation that causes the natural frequencies to superimpose or wave superposition. By achieving wave superposition the amplitude of the oscillations will have the greatest potential of breaking the molecule into its elemental constituents thereby creating free atoms that can recombine to form the diatomic molecules desired. H2 and O2 Oddly enough chemistry and properties of elements can play into this process as the electrodes used if they are constructed of platinum will result in a better yield from hydrolysis. This may be the result of how the atomic structure of platinum releases electrons through solution. A similar process has been observed in certain solar cells as alloys of atoms are placed on layers of silicon substrate creating a resonant cavity to enhance voltage production through the capture of photons. The explanation comes from the energy level of exchange of electrons during enthalpy processes that exceed the enthalpy energy required to break the covalent bonds of H2O…

eugen a scris:Dupa cate inteleg, apa din aerul umed participa la dinamica plasmei.

eugen a scris:Plasma elicoidala in tub cu xenon:
https://youtu.be/vze8f3K00Gc
O imagine semnificativa:

eugen a scris: "Liniile  de câmp nu pot fi rectilinii sau circulare, ci numai și numai elicoidale."

scanteitudorel a scris:Mi-am  adus  aminte ca  intr-o carte  de fizica  exista  un exemplu  de miscare  elicoidala o unei sarcini electrice in campul magnetic  terestru.
Si din  proprie experienta am  constatat   ca  intr-un  tub  de Neon de  40 de W ,defect din fabricatie , la  aprindere    apare   pe un  interval  de  cateva  secunde  o  elicoida care  incepe  sa  se roteasca  in  jurul  axei proprii , dupa  care  tubul  de  Neon nu  mai  functioneaza  .  

virgil_48 a scris:Si eu am vazut sarpele acela luminos, care se zbate intr-un tubde neon epuizat. Acela nu pare a avea o forma regulata

virgil_48 a scris: Ce efect ar produce un magnet liniar
sau cilindric plimbat prin exterior.